HUMANITY: Converse

+Firasat Ali Zaidi - You are right if ethics and moral values are part of the equation. Marketing is what you do when your product is no good, Edwin Herbert Land. This observation / quote reflects:- Marketing, has lately has lost it's credibility. While customers are increasing aware of marketing gimmicks they rightly make choices on value / merits of products and services. The added cost of marketing to a product or service will remain a waste of resources; until the customer regains trust and confidence as advertised / Marketed. The famous adage, you can fool some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.

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Think / Ponder, the cause and effect of the universe. Can order come out of Chaos? Those who believe it can, have chosen a path of their own whims and desires and Humankind has the free will of choice.

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The point is marketing is not necessary for good products and services though it may offend the advertising community. Truth, through word of mouth spreads by itself never having to entice a customer.

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Thanks Cory. We have high regards to the people of USA. However, we do not understand the reason why people are restricted with only two choices; either the Red or Blue and by default they elect the same policies of governance. Hope the economic model of Libertarians will rise up to save the debt burden, the US has accumulated. With Peace and Respect we can achieve prosperity, if the leaders realise the benefits of co-operation of natural resources of each other. If you were to filter your system of economic model with Shariah Compliance, the results will be a refined, pure and debt free life.

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In Arabic 'Ibada', loosly translated as worship. The root word in Arabic 'Ibada' is derived from 'Abd' means, slave. Muslims show ultimate reverence and adoration to their Creator not to an object. Excess reverence and adoration to something i.e an idol is prohibited in Islam.

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The perception of a pilgrimage in the Islamic term is 'a journey to pay homage to a scared place, as an act of devotion and obedience'. To experience the motions and emotions of our predecessors. Millions of Muslim every month who return from Umrah or Hadj every year, experiences the bounty and the blessings of their Creator. That's a personal miracle that strengthens our sacrifice in terms of money, time and effort. We do not worship the place or the direction. All prayers and supplications are directed towards the Creator of the universe. Muslims are rewarded for their SINCERE INTENTIONS of an act they do to the pleasure of their Creator.

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People of all race / religion migrate for various reasons, mostly for economic purposes. There are millions of non Muslims are earning a living in Arabia with their mentality intact.

The nation-state as a form of organisation is on its way out, and that a 100 years from now people will look back at countries like the U.S. the way we look back at medieval kingdoms today.

A continent of oil kingdoms, grabbed at gun point. Democracy is just a word, when the people are starving. The average citizen made to be blind to the reason. A desert full of genocide, where the bodies are burning and the world doesn't believe that you are fighting for freedom, cause you screwed Arabia and gave birth to a demon.

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+Hussain Fahmy I did want to just comment on part of your reply to +ZombieTex about the bankers bringing the world to the brink of financial collapse in the name of Democracy. I understand and appreciate your approach of putting things in relation to Islam. Let's be clear that you and I are in agreement about bankers and greed. I just want to add in that "Democracy" is 2 wolves and 1 sheep voting on what's for dinner. The United States of America was not founded on the principals of Democracy. There was never any expectation that the majority should rule and their word be sacrosanct. In fact, it was just the opposite. The minority deserved as much protection as the majority, and that minority could be as small as the individual. This was also Jefferson's view of government. The further government went in distance from the individual, the less it power it was supposed to have. The thinking was that it was very hard for the people to maintain vigilance over what their "representatives" were doing in another state, but relatively easy to keep track of what was happening in their own town.

A big part of what learning Austrian Economics provides you with is the tools to understand why things are happening the way they are. In the case of the United States, the central bank (Federal Reserve) is a huge source of the corruption that you are alluding to. Central Banks have been a problem throughout our history and the history of other countries as well. The Federal Reserve Act created what could be called the 3rd Bank of the United States. There were two others that were thankfully put to rest through great political conflict.

Central Banks create corporate profits by socializing risk using the population as a whole (debasing currency, forcing interest rates at artificial levels, financing wars of imperialism in order to control international markets or steal resources) and condoning moral hazard. I'm only touching the surface of an extremely complex problem, however the solution is "easy." If we as a country can return to our private property roots where the individual (life) and the fruits of our labor are sacrosanct, this corruption that you are talking about no longer exists.

While I'm a bit naive about the laws of Islam, I'll guess that this view is compatible with those laws.

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+Cory Brickner While we love the perceived philosophy, what the US preaches around the world and what they have in practice are poles apart. Democracy is the new religion the US is trying very hard to shove it in our throats. The more they try, the more people repel and Democracy shows it's dirty side. Example Egyptian military coup verses Thailand's military takeover. Our lives do not depend on man-made laws rather we live and die by the Divine laws. We do not expect non Muslims to comply unless they take the time to investigate with an open mind to the benefits and accommodate in their lives; the experience and the benefits it offers voluntarily. Most Muslims have thrived with a non interest based financial plan. Our Islamic ideals work with faith, belief and intentions. I do agree with your naivety of the Islamic laws as the reasons why Islamic laws look bad on a secular level and we should give credit to the false propaganda it enjoys. We take into account the collective good of the community / nation in solving the problems of humanity rather than the individual benefits one can avail. Thank you for taking the time to explain your position.

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There is a clear distinction between trading and gambling. If you look at the fundamentals of entrepreneurship closely it distinguishes from gambling. As you say when you place a bet on a venture based on chance / speculation rather than calculated risks based on tangible goods and services, the difference appears in results. There is plenty of examples we can learn from the recent financial meltdown. Those who are familiar with the Bible will know that one of the time Jesus (pbuh) lost his temper was with the "money changers" at the temple. Today's "money changers" are the bankers who have, through their own greed, brought the entire world to the brink of financial collapse in the name of Democracy.

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I agree with you on Gold / Silver as a medium of exchange for goods and services. We are looking at two economic systems. My one is based on Islamic values and other sort of man-made. Only time will determine which one is superior provided Muslims practice 'Life on Earth' as it was prescribed by our Shariah. Someone once said 'Greed is Good'.

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+Hussain Fahmy You make some good points, but you are conflating two different issues. Silver / Gold are exactly like you said, a good store of value. That is what makes them a trade intermediary, or money. It is the devaluation of fiat (paper) money that causes the problem. Even when silver and gold were money, governments would "clip" the metal from the coins or change the metallurgical ratios. This negatively impacts the money holder in the same way "printing" fiat money does. The second issue is a separate one, but ties to the first: investment. You need to have savings in order to invest. Devaluation of the currency impacts savings negatively by influencing the time-preference of holding money. This in turn creates consumption instead of investment. It is also this currency devaluation that creates currency speculation that wouldn't really exist if the government didn't control the money supply to begin with.

Removing the government monopoly control of the money supply creates money stability and restores the balance of savings and investment over consumption.

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The era of paper chase.

Employers have made it commercial. In the old days the employers looked at competency, communication skills, experience, attitude and paper qualifications hardly meant the the paper printed on. The founding fathers of many nations are the best example. Educational institutes make money by building brand names and publicity and fleece the students in a grand scale.

http://gulfnews.com/news/gulf/uae/crime/fake-degree-racket-in-uae-exposed-1.1339968

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Practising Muslims should be very careful to judge others based on baseless propaganda.

The gift of Allah is in abundance to all human beings. How one seeks it, and uses it matters. Oil wealth in the Arabian Emirates did not bring success rather implementing the right social and economic policies did. Dubai hardly has any oil reserves but its trade and commerce output is 80% of the GDP. If one believes that the people in the Emirates have forgotten their humble beginnings they are sadly mistaken. Judging from afar without knowing the ground realities is a form of consuming media propaganda. Those of us living here have first hand witness to the early days of life in the desert and the Arab hospitality.

Slander has serious consequences. Our Leaders may not be perfect however, they do strive to hold on to the Islamic values as much as possible.

Lo! they who spread the slander are a gang among you. Deem it not a bad thing for you; nay, it is good for you. Unto every man of them (will be paid) that which he hath earned of the sin; and as for him among them who had the greater share therein, his will be an awful doom. (The Noble Quran 24:11)

Lo! those who love that slander should be spread concerning those who believe, theirs will be a painful punishment in the world and the Hereafter. Allah knoweth. Ye know not. (The Noble Quran 24:19)

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All Peace Loving People Should Watch This. Aggression summarised in 77 minutes. - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBHC90bw9P8&feature=c4-overview&list=UUdZEdcjn1P3kpA9edvdd13g

Psychology of Aggression summarised in 77 minutes. Share Recommended.

Most People of the US is having a deep rooted conscience for justice and they do speak out at every occasion they get. All Peace Loving People Should Watch This. Aggression summarised in 77 minutes. Evil has a way of self destructing itself.

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Cultural Nationalism is a marketing gimmick by politicians to instil brand loyalty to country / nation.

O mankind! Lo! We have created you from male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. Lo! the noblest of you, in the sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Lo! Allah is Knower, Aware. (The Noble Quran 49:13)

Islam in its essence promotes open borders. Border protection is recent and a nationalistic concept. Islam encourages free movement of people to live and learn from each other and thus enrich their lives. With the advent of technology, virtual borders are fast becoming a reality.

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THIS DOG ARIEL SHARON SAID THIS IN AN INTERVIEW IN 1956 ABOUT OUR BROTHERS & SISTERS;

“I don’t know something called International Principles. I vow that I’ll burn every Palestinian child (that) will be born in this area. The Palestinian woman and child is more dangerous than the man, because the Palestinian child’s existence infers that generations will go on, but the man causes limited danger. I vow that if I was just an Israeli civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him. With one hit I’ve killed 750 Palestinians (in Rafah in 1956). I wanted to encourage my soldiers by raping Arabic girls as the Palestinian women is a slave for Jews, and we do whatever we want to her and nobody tells us what we shall do but we tell others what they shall do.”

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Ariel Sharon, aka 'The Butcher' for his merciless slaughtering of thousands of people, is dead. We trust that Allah will deal with him as he deserves.

What is truly amazing about this excuse of a human is that his own people, and his own judiciary system, accused him of war crimes and brutality. Multiple times during the course of his military career, his superiors publicly and privately chastised and rebuked him; he was demoted for his murders; over 50 thousand Israelis marched in the streets protesting against his ruthless killing of civilians; he was convicted of bearing personal responsibility in the brutal massacres of Sabra and Shatilla; and his own Israeli courts recommended that he be banned from public office. Yet, despite all of this outcry, he eventually rose to become Prime Minister of his land - the last bastion of apartheid on earth.

What does that say about the morality of such a country, and the convictions of its own people, when they can elect, and honor, someone whom they themselves know to be a brutal mass murderer?

Ariel Sharon is dead, but the thousands of people he was directly responsible for massacring live on as martyrs, and are not dead.

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Democracy in essence; is enforcing man made laws; which, erodes the ethical and moral values of a society. Example legalisation of psychedelic drugs, alcohol, gay marriage, gambling, prostitution, speculative financial instrument to name a few. Communism is dead, socialism is dying while capitalism is struggling to survive. Any philosophy/ideology build on false premises will perish with time.

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The Radical Bhikkus instilling the 'fear factor' in the minds of the sheeple to hold on to power. This "fear weapon" is invoked in numerous ways which makes people feel fearful and insecure so that the "controllers" can exert all manner of oppressive and invasive controls over the people. Surprisingly it works.

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Laws are enacted to educate the masses for the benefit of collective benefits. Human lives will be increasingly controlled by law for safety reasons as science and technology advances, some of them may invade our privacy and some may even be darn outrages. One of the advantages is the cost of Health care for mother and child can be reduced during their life time to the Emirate.

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Well researched/calculated chances/risks have its rewards. Whenever we have a transition or moving from one system to another there will be definite difficulties, but I think there is enough brainpower, and determination, courage and faith to meet the difficulties as they develop. We often feel like saying, “People aren't ready,” that it’s like telling a person who is trying to swim, “Don’t jump in the water until you learn how to swim.” When actually we will never learn how to swim until we get in the water and I think people have to have an opportunity to develop themselves in taking chances/risks.

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What Muslims did in the past does not count in the present as the Radical Bhikkus instilling the 'fear factor' in the minds of the sheeple to hold on to power. This "fear weapon" is invoked in numerous ways which makes people feel fearful and insecure so that the "controllers / rulers" can exert all manner of oppressive and invasive controls over the people. Surprisingly it works. Muslims should seek individual independence rather than rely on the "controllers / rulers"

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Changing one to another is not the solution. The most dangerous threat is democracy and the mistaken belief that they actually work, because democracy is not a noun, it's a verb. "Demos" means "the people", and "kratia" means "rule", so the word democracy means "the people rule." You may have the trappings of democracy, you just get to go and pull a lever every 4-6 years only for candidates that have been pre-approved and pre-selected by the corporate elite. But when it comes to "the people rule." actually participating in a meaningful way in how the society is organised, Democracy is flawed and stinks to it's core. The change should be the system of governance to a meaningful future. May Allah guide the resplendent Island.

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Another well orchestrated scam / ponzi scheme. Bitcoin will Bite the most vulnerable as most people do not see the flaws in the electronic movement, rather they see the hype created by the speculators. Money in essence is the exchange of resources and should be backed by tangible goods and services to retain its value / purchasing power.

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The United States is fast losing its reputation as the land of happiness and prosperity. With a sinking economy at home and rising tensions abroad, fear and discontent are boiling over. The Great American Dream is faltering. A new and drastically changed America is coming. Some will not want to see it. Some will not live to see it.

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Thanks +Anita Tabib Electronic currency is inevitable as the evolution of exchanging of resources has got complexed ever since primitive man/woman started to barter within his/her village. However, prudent people will and should resist the Zionist form of one world currency. The good news is the Islamic finance and economy is thriving and would emerge as the only ethical way to solve the current financial crisis. It's very unlikely the North American people can do anything about it; as their system of governance is controlled by the Zionists with one system choice, either the Red or Blue.

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The question should be How much of your Taxes goes to waging wars thousands of miles away to cause misery and destroy human lives

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An apt definition of #Democracy, the new faith imposed on the people of the so-called free world to fleece their resources.

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GAFLAH, (A state of rejection) If you are not Reflecting then you will be rejecting the signs of a Creator and His Messengers.

Among the greatest cures to nervous disorders, and even other illnesses of the body, is the firmness of the heart and its strength. Lack of its being troubled and perturbed by illusions and imaginations brought about by evil thoughts. This is because whenever a person lets their imaginations get the better

of them, and allows their heart to reject the Creator over something bad happened to them, they will surely be thrown into a den of grief, sorrow, physical, mental and a nervous breakdown.

Whenever a person relies and depends on their Creator, does NOT surrender their heart to illusions, does not let evil imaginations get the better of them, puts their trust in their Creator and has confidence in His favour. Then grief and sorrow will vanish from their heart as a result of these actions. Many physical and mental illnesses will leave them and their heart will experience such joy and tranquillity that are beyond expression. Hospital is filled with sick people suffering from mental illusions and evil imaginations! How many strong people have these things shattered their hearts, to say nothing of the weak ones! The only one exempted is the one whose Creator has given well-being and guided them to struggle with their self; in acquiring useful and beneficial means of strengthening the heart and warding off evil within them.

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The Law of Nature defines, The fear of survival turning into an obsession by destructive means is a quicker way to extinction of a species. Let past lessons be a guide to the future.

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Action speaks louder than words. Prosecution of the undesirable will restore trust and confidence to the people of #SriLanka

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DemoCrazy as people's choice is a secular system steals from the poor and blows it overseas. The Secular nation-state as a form of government is on its way out, and in a 100 years from now people will look back at the U.S. the way we look back at medieval kingdoms today.

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At times it's better to express our feelings than act on it.

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Disagreement is one of the beauties of free speech. However, conscience is the moral compass to guide the living.

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Death is only a transition and the living treasures the memories

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Theists and Atheists should learn to respect each others views. It's Human nature to express grief and offer solace to those who are in distress. Vying for superiority is the issue.

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Exchanging of tangible resources should be based on mutually accepted unit of values. The medium of exchange is only a tool to transfer goods and services to each other. Coded electronic signals (e-currency) cannot have an intrinsic value ever. However, they are only means of convenience to exchange.

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Earthly Life is a short journey and death is the beginning of Eternal Life. --- Every soul must taste of death, and We try you with evil and with good, for ordeal. And unto Us ye will be returned. (The Noble Quran 21:35)

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At the time of the birth of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) the (Saudi's) Arabian entity was non existence. the viewers should not judge the Saudi's tribal customs with the Islamic Divine Injunctions (The Islamic Sharia)

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You see, we choose to believe whatever pleases us and guidance is only from God. +Naushad Somji seems to be deep rooted in what he/she believes in but attempting to drag Islam into the mud will not only show your extent of naivety but desperation to present Islam as a fallible religion. If you take your time to read the Qur'an with an open mind, you'd not only see the truth but you'd know that only the wise will take heed in the messages revealed there-in.

An excerpt from the Qur'an specifically, Qur'an Chapter 5 verse 3 reads, "... This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. ...".

No matter how hard we try to deny this ayat, it's essence will continue to manifest even if the 1/73 adherents appear so few in number. ISLAM IS PERFECT, MUSLIMS AIN'T !!!

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Science has proven beyond any doubt the existence of a Creator through our active senses and by the marvels of the universe. However, some so-called intellectuals refuse to see this fantastic clock work. Rather they prefer to believe in the random theory of unscientific chance. Magic deceives reality and defined as an illusion.

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Whilst the Islamic economic model is not enforced by any so called Islamic countries, Muslims have formed consortium among themselves successfully to take advantage of the benefits of it's features. Our model may have a touch of Marxist/Leninist/Communistic theories in practice however, in it's essence the values are placed in morality, Divine accountability and sustainability; has proven beyond any doubts that it works for the greater good of Humanity.

Right you are Hussain; nearly every theology at its basis agrees with Islam (one of the most recent, vibrant and diverse religions). The most recent, best example of the Islamic influence in the economic theory of a country, I am told, was in Syria by way of the Ba’ath Party in the 1970s. Judaism in its roots, thousands of years ago, created a forty-year cycle of wealth gradually turning over like weather, water or topsoil. Likely, the disparity twixt wealth and poverty was never nearly as absurd as it is today. Economics for the classical Greek Aristotle is a moral philosophy based on the household management and harmony. The ideal of an economics as a moral philosophy, rather than the hyper-competitive dynamic of a winner and loser of boom and bust, is evident in the writing of the more recent Adam Smith, David Ricardo, Marx, Engels and, to an extent, in every economic theorist no mater what side of the aisle. Theology is the mother of philosophy in which ethics is the center-piece of theory; without ethics religion is useless passion: pseudo-religion: a false unity and, ergo, the world collapses under the dross of greed and self-interest. BTW, Iceland practiced tough love with its banks in the 2008 burst; Sweden took over many of its banks in the early 1990s and, thus, never lost its decade the way that Japan, for example, did.

Part of the problem for several centuries now is the mechanization of economics, a word which shares its etymological roots with ecology. There is nothing inorganic and mechanical about a true economy of a flesh and bones, cellulose and water, weather patterns and topsoil economy; economy is all about link and unity with the planet and the universe in which the planet moves and unfolds within. Money is a cypher for the wealth of the universe and money loses its meaning and eternal usefulness when it is traded as manipulated for profit. Make it not for profit; a credit union is a step in the right direction.

Our wealth does not accompany our soul. However, our deeds, good and bad stay with us until the day of reckoning.

On the Day when every soul will come pleading for itself, and every soul will be repaid what it did, and they will not be wronged. (The Noble Quran 16:111)

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The conventional economic system, that is based on interest, has resulted in concentrating the wealth in the hands of selected few creating monopolies and widening the gap between the rich and the poor. In contrast Islam encourages circulation of wealth and regards its role as important to an economy as the flow of blood to our human body. Just as clotting of blood paralyses human body, concentration of wealth paralyses economy. The fact is that today 10 richest men in the world have more wealth than 48 poorest countries of the world. Millions are malnourished, lack access to safe water, cannot read or write, in short the quality of life has decayed and the graph continues to go down.

Economic justice requires a viable economic system supported by an efficient banking system. Interest based banking has proved to be inefficient as it fails to equitably distribute wealth which is necessary for the well being of mankind. On the other hand Islamic banking is efficient and ensures equitable distribution of wealth thus laying foundation for an inflation free economy and socially responsible banking.

A superior economic system results in productivity and economic prosperity. The economic philosophy of Islam has no concept of Interest because according to Islam, Interest is a curse to society, which accumulates money around handful of people, and it results inevitably in creating monopolies, opening doors for selfishness, greed, injustice and oppression. Deceit and fraud prospers in the world of trade and business. Islam, on the other hand, primarily encourages highest moral ethics such as universal brotherhood, collective welfare and prosperity, social fairness and justice. Due to this reason, Islam renders Interest as absolutely Haraam and strictly prohibits all types of interest based transactions. The prohibition of Interest in the light of

economic philosophy of Islam can be explained with the cost of distribution of wealth in a society.

The distribution of wealth is one of the most important and most controversial subjects concerning the economic life of man, which has given birth to global revolutions in today’s world, and has affected every sphere of human activity from international politics down to the private life of the individuals. For many a century now, the question has been the centre not only of fervent debates, oral and written both, but also of armed conflicts. The fact, however, is that whatever has been said on the subject without seeking guidance from Divine Revelation and relying merely on human reason, has had the sole and inevitable result of making the confusion worse confounded.

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The US voters have no choice but to elect the Devil. In their own version of democracy, a regime change is from the ballot not from the bullet. How long will the world tolerate Washington’s incessant destruction of countries and peoples from Somalia to Afghanistan to Iraq to Libya to Pakistan to Yemen to Syria to Ukraine, with Russia, Iran, and China waiting in the wings?

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A premise is a proposition supporting or helping to support a conclusion not when it contains logical inconsistencies.

Allah's definition in the Islamic context. He is The One; Not Divisible! The eternal!. He begetteth not nor was begotten. And there is none comparable unto Him. No beginning No end.

God does not have to demean Himself to prove a point by taking the attributes of His creation. That's why God in comparable to His creation. Thanks +rocky balboa

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Fear of corrupting the mind is the concern. What we consume is the direct result of our output. Garbage In Garbage Out. However, having said that, keeping away from Evil is Virtually impossible unless we are educated to sift the right from wrong or the good from evil.

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Upon reading her story, sadness on seeing a picture of her frail and fallen body beside a monstrous Zionist machine designed to destroy. Zionists continue to destroy with impunity from the US (Ultra Satans) to this day.

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Islam enriches the lives of the Muslims around the world and the Arabic language makes it easy to practice Islam.

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God does not have to take the attributes of His creation to prove His superiority and His magnificence.

The proof in the Islamic context to Muslims is the Noble Quran. You do not have to believe. Faith is inspired to those who seek it.

It's pure logic that The Creator cannot be the creation.

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Asking politicians to save the Masjid is like seeking advice from SinHella Atheists to govern our lives. Most Politicians by their very nature and their very presence distort/destroy/sodomize social order. Politicians steal from the unborn and create economic and social distortions, they are kind of meddling time travellers with an evil intend to destroy the beauty of life. No sane Human being should associate with them, let alone be a part of electing them. Muslims are blessed with a time tested system of governance which provides happiness in this life and preps for an eternal life.

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Putin: "Negotiating with Obama is like playing chess with a chicken. The chicken knocks over all the pieces, shits on the board, and struts around like he's won."

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In practice, Politicians using their 'State Power' to create a better life for people is an illusion. It's time to step aside from this dilution and place our trust in a proven system of self governance / development. Perhaps you can elicit the benefits Muslims have received from the so-called 'State Power'. Politicians can do very little and your allegiance to them is futile, unless we roll up our sleeves and get to work and make a difference. What is our ultimate concern? It should be attaining Paradise and the Beatific Vision. We have to guard and protect this concern. This is something that takes tremendous effort and Divine help. Therefore, the Prophet, peace br upon him, taught us to supplicate, “O Allah! Do not make this world our greatest concern or the extent of its knowledge unless it benefits us to reach Jennah.”

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SubhanAllah. The Miracle of The Noble Quran never ceases to amaze the timeless wisdom addressed to Humanity. .

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Human beings are created with a free will and we are examined for a limited period of time to qualify for an eternal life. -

And those who believe in Allah and His messengers, they are the loyal, and the martyrs are with their Lord; they have their reward and their light; while as for those who disbelieve and deny Our revelations, they are owners of hell-fire. (The Noble Quran 57:19) Know that the life of the world is only play, and idle talk, and pageantry, and boasting among you, and rivalry in respect of wealth and children; as the likeness of vegetation after rain, whereof the growth is pleasing to the husbandman, but afterward it drieth up and thou seest it turning yellow, then it becometh straw. And in the Hereafter there is grievous punishment, and (also) forgiveness from Allah and His good pleasure, whereas the life of the world is but matter of illusion. (The Noble Quran 57:20) Race one with another for forgiveness from your Lord and a Garden whereof the breadth is as the breadth of the heavens and the earth, which is in store for those who believe in Allah and His messengers. Such is the bounty of Allah, which He bestoweth upon whom He will, and Allah is of Infinite Bounty. (The Noble Quran 57:21)

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The 'Word' of the Creator in Islamic understanding is the Noble Quran (The Last Testament). Practising Muslims do not abide by any private interpretations of people rather the statements conveyed by Allah known to us as the 'Authentic Hadiths'. The misconception is not having the access to the broader concept.

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A serious flaw of logic to blame a technologically sound car for the fault of the all the drivers. This is an indication where ones heart resides.

Yes a better limited life on earth, how about the eternal life?

Proof of an existence of a Creator is embedded in our soul and the recognition is up us by reflecting on the marvels of the creation around and within us.

A Link to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dovmUVNvkQ&feature=em-uploademail

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The technological competency of a car is not judged by it's driver. In all fairness, Islam should be judged by the message it contains. The essence of it's message is to believe in One Creator, one Human race.

"O Believers! Enter into Islam completely and do not follow the footsteps of Satan. He is unto you a clear enemy." (2:208)

Entering into Islam totally means two things. The first is to enter into it wholeheartedly with complete sincerity. The second is to accept all of its rulings, working to avoid picking and choosing based on our whims and preferences. To do otherwise, is to follow the footsteps of Satan. He rebelled against God based on the whimsical inclinations of his soul. This complete submission to God and His religion should in no place be more manifest than in the ritual prayer.

Whether humanity likes it or not, The Creator has all sovereignty over His creation.

Every human being has the right to defend their Blood, Honour and Property. At times passion takes control to defend their honour. Practising Muslims value their honour more than their life as our life is the sole property of The Creator.

And Allah hath created the heavens and the earth with truth, and that every soul may be repaid what it hath earned. And they will not be wronged. (The Noble Quran 45:22)

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We are all slaves to our beliefs, desires, wealth and etc. The Islamic system of governance (finance and social) has enriched our lives and as Muslims we do not expect others to follow us until they have experienced the value it offers. Theology is purely based on ones Faith. None have the power to influence the other rather discuss and learn from each other,, the pros and cons of a Faith system. Atheism is a form of belief as well. The human being was honoured with the blessings of life and faith for a short period of time on earth, most misused them, until Death takes it away. Cheers

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Yes, you are right those who plunder the wealth of another will eventually pay the price of self destruction.

The aggressor has been gunning against Islam for decades, have slaughtered more than a million people and have destroyed the lives of millions more by invading their lands and bombing them indiscriminately, under false pretences (WMD, Democracy etc)

Afghanistan is where it is said that “Empires go to Die”. In chronological order:

The Indus, Kushan, Scythian, Parthian, Saffarid, Ghaznanavid, Ghorid, Timurid, Hotaki, Durrani, Aryan, Persian, Sassanid, Hepthalite, Hun, Mughal, Arab, Turk, Hazaras, Kwharezmid, Mongol, British (three times) and Soviet empire.

So the current incumbents, the USA, obviously have not read the history books yet.

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+Hussain Fahmy

I don't even know how to reply to that..

I'm talking about these leaders that you 'respect' and you bring God into this..

People fear others, whether you like it or not.

If a guy pointed a gun at your face, you wouldn't fear them? You wouldn't be scared of them?

They did it out of fear.

What would have happened if they had said no?

They would have lost their jobs and depending on how they answered him, they may have also gone to jail.

Look at your country.

Who works the best jobs? Who are the business men? white males and Emirati males.

Who works in what would be considered the lower end jobs? The rest of the people, such as Indians and Pakis.

Is this due to the fact that Emirati and white males are more qualified? of course not!

It's because of corruption and racism.

I've been to Emirates and it looks beautiful, but everything else needs to be improved, as in... the equality side of things.

Royals disgust me, no matter what country.

I know this is off topic, but I just had to have this rant.

Read more (23 lines)

Heil Me.Yesterday 6:24 PM

+Hussain Fahmy" One of the definition of a 'hypocrite' in the Islamic Shariah is those who take the word of Allah out of context or misinterpret it." Hussain, the whole Quran is interpreted, what makes you think everything you understand is the "right" way. Over the years Islamic scholars have debated the Quran. They have come to agree on interpretations, that you today believe to be true. Since Allah was left out of the debates, what makes you think you truly understand the Quran?

Jesus IslamYesterday 6:57 PM

+Heil Me. We can explain a verse of the Holy Qur'an by means of another.

Heil Me.Yesterday 7:43 PM

+Jesus Islam OK so it is you interpreting the word of Allah. So you speak on behalf of Allah?

Jesus IslamYesterday 9:07 PM

+Heil Me. Qur'an 41:33. And who is better in speech than he who [says: "My Lord is Allah (believes in His Oneness)," and then stands straight (acts upon His Order), and] invites (men) to Allah's (Islamic Monotheism), and does righteous deeds, and says: "I am one of the Muslims."

Jesus IslamYesterday 9:15 PM+1

We do not interpret the word of Allah as we wish, we are only commanded to invite and explain the verses based on the Qur'an itself and not take them out of context in order to distort its meanings as hypocrites do. Peace!

Heil Me.Yesterday 9:28 PM1

+Jesus Islam Peace be with you.

Muslims believe the Creator of the Universe is the most knowledgeable thus the last testament, the Noble Quran is the right methodology for Mankind to follow. The intricate details are the statements (Hadiths) of Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) in which the Muslims adhere to. The debates the Scholars have is to expound the principles in the ever changing world with the fundamentals intact. The Islamic Shariah (Divine Injunctions) is something we Muslims apply on ourselves to experience the best in this world and hope to be rewarded for complying in the next 'eternal life'.

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A good description of Democracy "is when elected officials disregard the Will of the people by waging expensive wars by pawning the future generations". God-Given constitutional rights or Man-Made Constitutional rights? we all seem to crave. The strong overpowers the weak and Man-Made constitutions are violated right now and will perish with time.

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Our choices have consequences. The fear and reality of death emerges when we take our last breadth. Until such time to you is your belief and to me is mine.

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Enjoying the benefits of someone else's hard work without them being paid is an unfair and unethical practice. Any product / service that is beneficial to humanity must be adequately rewarded through a system within a government organisation. To this effect the Islamic law has provisions through endowments set by philanthropists to compensate and encourage people to be more productive. This value system is now replaced with patent laws which restricts people to be productive and innovative.

+Hussain Fahmy at the risk of generating controversy, how may I ask does Islamic law/culture actually (not theoretically) promote innovation and/or productivity? I ask this only because Islamic society is generally regarded as socially conservative and actively restrictive of access to any knowledge or ideas considered by officials or religious authorities to be counter to Islam. I consider a culture that so heavily restricts ideas and knowledge to be inherently incompatible with innovation and/or the liberation of ideas.

+Timothy Matias Unfortunately, Some Muslims have ACTUALLY stopped practising their faith in THEORY. When we did, we flourished as a community in the past at the risk of historical facts. Muslim scholars have shared their knowledge widely in the past and we continue to do so in the present. Islam encourages 'innovation and culture' that is beneficial to humanity and restricts acts and behaviours that harm us. That is one of the reason why Muslims prefer to abide by the Divine law. All this boils down to ones faith in the system of governance one chooses.

I would also argue (at the risk of fellow G+ers mistaking me for an opponent of free software) that patents can (and often do) inspire an increase in innovation by forcing entrepreneurs and companies to produce products which are remarkably innovative, rather than just incremental improvements over existing ideas, as would be the predominating model in the absence of patent law.

Considering that religion has historically been at odds with innovation and progress (all religions, even Hinduism have had this effect), I must play the skeptic. I will provide some scenarios where the Muslim religion has been known to hinder science in the past, and continues to hinder it in the modern day. This will allow for some consistency in the debate of the theoretical and actual influence of religion on innovation/etc.:

1. Shariat law requires citizens to consider the judgement of religious leaders (and the interpretation of the Qur'an) to override their own, and ideas contrary to the interpretation of the Qur'an and Hadiths according to the Caliph (or other high ranking religious officials) can be and is considered to be heresy.

2. Women have been considered by Islamic law to have much less rights than men, and have half the worth of men for most legal and economic purposes. The fact that Islamic gender rights have not progressed significantly since the inception of Islam shows how it suppresses the progress of human rights.

3. Similarly, the strict dress code of Islam has almost completely suppressed innovation of fashion, especially for women but for men also.

4. Islamic restrictions on sexual expression, even in private, hinders the innovation of sexual practices, pleasure, etc.

5. The highly centralized nature of the Islamic state highly hinders the evolution and innovative improvement of government, and the cultural dependence of the people on the Caliph (and other high ranking officials) results in a maladaptive government that is conservative to a fault.

+Timothy Matias Women have half the rights of inheritance and men have the financial obligation to look after their parents and their sisters in case of divorce. Most women would prefer to receive half the inheritance rather than have the burden of financial responsibilities.

As for the dress code, I am sure if we have something valuable, we will not flaunt it and attract buglers.

Islam has no objection as anything private between a husband and wife remains private.

Perhaps you are referring to the governments in Arabia with tribal law disguised as Islamic.

Timothy Matias14:18

None of your replies addressed my argument that Islamic culture hinders innovation. You could, for example, argue that Islam hinders innovation because it believes innovation is destructive, at least the types of innovation as I mentioned.

But I will address these counterarguments nevertheless:

1. "most women would prefer..." In most Western cultures, women prefer to have more rights and responsibilities. Even if most women did prefer less rights and responsibilities as you said (which would be difficult to prove), this is a culture-specific issue, and cannot be considered the reason in-itself (i.e. you cannot make the argument that because women are conditioned by culture to want less rights/responsibilities, that cultural conditioning is beneficial to those women by virtue of their acceptance of that way of life. To make a valid argument regarding this, you must show that women thrive better in an environment with less rights and responsibilities, irrespective of culture.

But, incidentally, the fact that the majority of cultural maladaption (as evidenced by media reports, statistics, and interviews) is centered around the human rights violations of women, shows that, in reality, women are not better off with less rights and responsibilities.

2. There is no evidence that wearing innovative clothes increases the chance of being burglarized mugged. Wearing richer clothes does, but as I'm sure you know, the clothes of the Caliphs and other high ranking political/religious officials, while not innovative, are most definitely expensive looking. Its also incidentally less expensive to buy a hajib, than to not buy one.

Contrary to yournargument, the reasons why innovative fashion are prohibited/restricted are:

a. Because the skin of most of the body should not be exposed

b. Because looking too different/too colorful is regarded as rebellious.

3. So is the husband wants to engage with the wife in the licking and fingering of each other's genitals, or to engage in intercourse with her breasts or butt, Islamic law would not forbid it, so long as it is done in private? I would be very surprised if this were indeed the case...

I am referring exclusively to Islamic law as instituted by the Qur'an and Shari'a, and supplemented by the Hadiths.

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The only time Islam interferes with science is to protect mankind from self destruction. Shariah requires to consider the Noble Quran and the authentic sunnah (way) of the Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) as related by his companions. In other words, the Shariah does not require to consider the judgement of Religious leaders who give their own opinions as Human faculties err.

+Timothy Matias Lot of assumptions. Have a open mind and try to see the evil in an act or behaviour. We have different objective in life. Mine is by choice is the everlasting life while others might choose the existing short life. We can go on who is right like I said before it boils down our choices and respect to them.

What assumptions have I made? Everything I have said is based on facts, as far as I know. If I have made any error, please draw attention to it that I may correct it.

BTW, in reference to point #3:

"In Islam, oral sex is considered "Makruh Tahrimi"[1] or highly undesirable by most Islamic jurists when the act is defined as mouth and tongue coming in contact with the genitals.[2][3] The reason behind considering this act as not recommended is manifold, the foremost being the issue of modesty, purification (Taharat) and cleanliness on which there are clear hadith and ruling of the Qur'an.[4]

The most common argument states[3] that the mouth and tongue are used for recitation of the Qur'an and for the remembrance of Allah (Dhikr).[5] All four Sunni schools unanimously agree on the impurity of genital secretions, and that no secretion is for oral consumption. Therefore oral sex is considered immodest and reprehensible because mouth and tongue come into contact with impure secretion.[3][5][6] "

My point for the purposes of this thread is not that Islam is wrong (although objectively, Islam is overall counterproductive, at least from a secular [nonreligious] perspective), but that Islam is repressive of innovation and free expression. If you can, please provide arguments to the contrary of this assertion, to foster a more balanced view of this issue.

+Timothy Matias Your 1st assumption out of many, for lack of time and space - Quote "You could, for example, argue that Islam hinders innovation because it believes innovation is destructive, at least the types of innovation as I mentioned." Unquote

My point is; Islam is not against innovation rather against innovation that leads to self destruction of humanity. Can you please take some time to read many times and comprehend this.

You will have to provide reference from authentic Islamic sources (chapter, verse) to prove a point. To that effect you will have to unseal your heart to be objective and learn the Arabic language. Everything you have mentioned is a 'cut and paste' from an Islamophobic website. The confusion with the Arabic terms and when and where these terms are used is reserved for Arabic scholars. In Islam we have a state of sexual impurity and state of purity. To pray to the Creator of the universe and recite His words, one purifies from the state of impurity.

If Islam is counter productive one wonders why there is an exponential growth in Islamic finance and why it was unscathed during the recent financial crisis? You can choose to deny this fact but we cannot, as we are blessed with the wealth of happiness. Check with Edward Snowden, Bradley Manning Julian Asange and NSA on Free expression. They speak volumes.

Finally, the message of Islam is perfect, however Muslims are rewarded towards striving for perfection.

This should have been obvious, but economic prosperity does not equate to innovation. In fact, the following the financial collapse of 2008, American stocks broke world records, and investors boasted their biggest profits. This is one of the more recent big examples of how economic prosperity can and does result from economic inequality, greed, corruption, and social injustice. Incidentally, Islamic nations are some of the most socially and economically inequal in the world.

To make matters worse, the vast majority of Muslim nations have a long history of dependence on fossil fuels, especially oil, which is universally known to be the most environmentally damaging, anti-innovative (in the field of energy technologies), corruption-attracting, inequality-promoting energy source. Add to that the fact the fossil fuels are essentially the chemical decomposition of dead humans, animals, and plants.

To be blunt, Muslims have for over half of their history been depending on the destruction of the earth for their prosperity, and propagating the inequality, corruption, greed, and consolidation of anti-innovative energy technologies, yet you really think their economic prosperity (which resulted from the expansion of such industries) is innovative?

You can do better than that ;)

The end result of innovation is economic prosperity. The US stock market is distorted to the core and manupilated by the banksters / gamblers. Vegas is nothing incomparisson to Wall Street. Fossil feul saga is market driven and Arabia has the solar power capacity to produce energy to the rest of the world and this is being constructed at great speed.

Muslims are being slaughtered by the millions in return to steal their natural resources. Those who create mischief and harm others will be held accountable and cannot escape from their criminal behaviour. There is a serious flaw in the system of governance in most countries. Democracy in essence; is enforcing man made laws; which, erodes the ethical and moral values of a society. Example legalisation of psychedelic drugs, alcohol, gay marriage, gambling, prostitution, speculative financial instrument to name a few. Communism is dead, socialism is dying while capitalism is struggling to survive. Any philosophy/ideology build on false premises will perish with time. our reward is an eternal life filled with bliss as life on earth is a fleeting moment of time in comparison to eternity.

Every soul must taste of death, and We try you with evil and with good, for ordeal. And unto Us ye will be returned. (The Noble Quran 21:35) And when those who disbelieve behold thee, they but choose thee out for mockery, (saying): Is this he who maketh mention of your gods? And they would deny all mention of the Beneficent. (The Noble Quran 21:36)

+Hussain Fahmy aside from the myriad of logical fallacies you have committed (which I can inform you of the specifics of, upon request), none of your arguments even address my own, and are almost wholly irrelevant to the core discussion.

2. Let's end this tangent, and get back to the crux of this debate, which is:

a. Objectively speaking, how does Islam contribute to innovation and creative expression?

b. If Islam only prohibits or suppresses certain kinds of innovation only because it deems them tombe destructive, why is Muslim law and the associated Islamic culture so destructive, as evidenced by severe civil rights violations, blood feud provisions, economic, social, and gender inequalities, reliance on earth-destroying fossil fuel technologies, sanctioned murder, highly destructive and inhumane punishments, and religiously mandated (and/or sanctioned) racism, sexism, homophobia, and all kinds of prejudice? Even at its core, Islamic culture is very much destructive, both to its own people and to the quality of life of humanity in general. All this considered, how do you justify Islam's hypocrisy regarding these issues?

America's attacks on Islamic nations, while extremely immoral and destructive, are not relevant to this discussion, as such attacks were a result of political and corporate greed, and not a product of American culture. But even if the American people did want to slaughter millions of Muslims, that doesn't make it right. Its wrong for anyone to kill, torture, punish, or destroy others, and neither the religion, culture, nor the foreign policies of the established government, justify such destructive actions.

I will mostly refrain from addressing the claims you made in your second paragraph, except to say that the historical record and global statistics overwhelmingly disprove your claims regarding the effect of legalizing these things. Suffice to say: the war on drugs in America (making drugs illegal) has created more crime, corruption, violence, and oppression than any single other thing made illegal, and the same was true even more so when alcohol was made illegal in the early 20th century in America.

Though I might just be having difficulty reading between the lines, I'm fairly certain your closing verse from the Qur'an has nothing whatsoever to do with this thread. You're welcome to argue to the contrary.

Timothy MatiasYesterday 6:48 PM1

Regarding your claim Saudi Arabia is planning to soon produce enough solar energy for the world: According to Saudi Arabia's own claims, what you are saying it absolutely absurd. In 2008, the global energy demand was 144,000,000 Gigawatts. Saudi Arabia plans to install 41 gigawatts of energy by 2032. By then, the global energy demand will be well over 500,000,000 gigawatts. So let's do the math: Saudi Arabia will, assuming it meets its solar energy targets, supply the energy for 0.000000082 of the world.

Let's scale things down a bit. The population of Saudi Arabia is 30 million people. This means that if Saudi Arabia's solar power projects were completed today, they would provide 41 of the 250,000 Gigawatts Saudi Arabia currently demands.

So not only are these solar projects only providing an extremely negligible amount of solar power globally, they will only provide solar power for less than 5,000 of the 30,000,000 Saudi people. So basically, you're claiming that an amount of energy that can't even satisfy 5,000 people, is enough for the whole world, which is projected to reach 10 billion by around 2050.

Please take care to do some research before making outrageous claims. Your lies and ignorance are an insult to Alah, and to Islam!

+Timothy Matias None of my myriad logical fallacies are relevant as long as you are plugged into an Islamophobic mindset. Until you step out; it would be hard to comprehend.

Another assumption; where have I mentioned Saudi? Please READ very carefully before jumping into conclusions, My quote "Arabia has the solar power CAPACITY to produce energy to the rest of the world" unquote. Did you know there is a city in Arabia that is built entirely on solar energy and other renewable energy sources, with a zero waste ecology. It is initially aimed to be a sustainable zero-carbon car-free city. Ignorance is Blissfull.

We can't help if one is consumed with propaganda and insists on believing false information. Open your heart to the facts rather than relying on the biased media. The great majority of us are required to live a life of constant media propaganda. Blaming Islam and Muslims are not the solution. You may believe everything you read however, we work with what we see, touch and feel and place our trust completely with Allah and His Books.

Your amazing quote 'America's attacks on Islamic nations, while extremely immoral and destructive, are not relevant to this discussion, as such attacks were a result of political and corporate greed, and not a product of American culture. But even if the American people did want to slaughter millions of Muslims, that doesn't make it right. Its wrong for anyone to kill, torture, punish, or destroy others, and neither the religion, culture, nor the foreign policies of the established government, justify such destructive actions.' unquote. I detect confusion in your mindset, the duplicity, attacks on Islamic nations are irrelevant and then slaughter doesn't make it right. If political and corporate greed is not a product of American culture then please enlighten us in which culture these atrocities are committed?

Your Quote 'war on drugs has created more crime, corruption, violence' unquote. Do you really think making it legal will make the menace go away. May be you think (my assumption) drug abuse is not a menace rather freedom of choice.

Perhaps you should dwell with statistics on the harm that causes on Alcohol/drug/gambling, rapes per second, and what percentage of tax revenue goes to destroy human lives in far away lands.

History is full of Muslim's contribution for those who can see objectively.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1qs-f1sBbY

"When truth is hurtled against falsehood, falsehood perishes, for falsehood, by its nature bound to perish" (The Noble Quran 17:81)

Please read carefully, objectively before displaying deficiency in comprehension.

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Timothy Matias

13:41

1.Saudi Arabia is the only country in existence that has the word "Arabia" in its name. If you are going to make up fictional entities to support your ideology, you should at the very least clarify as such.

But even if the solar power infrastructure of the whole of the Arab world, both current and projected, were counted in aggregate, the figure would be extremely minuscule, and if you really thought about it, you would realize just how absurd the claims you are making. Even if all the Arab countries produced the power Saudia Arabia did (only one of them produces higher: United Arab Emirates), the amount of generated solar power would serve a mere 100,000 people, which can't even serve 1/10,000 of the Arab World globally. Stop being unreasonable.

I'm a bit occupied, so I'll address the rest of your "arguments" later.

+Timothy Matias Lack of Geography has nothing to do with ideology. Is it so hard to understand a simple sentence 'Arabia has the solar power CAPACITY to produce energy to the rest of the world'. Would you have believed a few years ago 'Arabia has the capacity to build the tallest skyscraper, the largest shopping mall, the biggest airport in the world upon completion. Our vision is not restricted, the attitude is anything the mind can conceive it can be achieved. Innovation and creativity are part of our DNA.

Links below are just a mere 7% of our Ruler's vision.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWGTPvOISSs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1XY2S5VU8U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOSci-rWf2Q

Timothy Matias

14:08

+Hussain Fahmy there's a big difference between ignorance of geography and lying about it.

Your continual bragging about the Arab world only affirms your culture's sinful hubris. The Islamic people's ambitions for great materialistic idols only ignite the wrath of Allah, and will bring upon the Islamic people the same wretched fate as the people of Babel, if not worse, as unlike those people, you are not ignorant of the will of Allah, and yet rebelliously act in haram.

Islam is fundamentally a religion of modesty of appearance, so that you would proclaim with shameless hubris the material idols Islam has erected, is a great act of defiance and heresy.

2. You assume political and corporate corruption and greed are products of American culture, but which countries are most notorious for socioeconomic inequalities, human rights violating, profit-driven, earth killing industry? Which are the most offensive with their arrogant ideologies? Which culture builds entire societies on self-righteous, politically-driven propaganda?

Almost all cultures have some political and corporate greed, but if there is any culture that can be given the greatest blame for this disgusting trend, it is most certainly Islamic culture!

You are the one who should stop believing the propaganda, and take a good look at the world outside the narrow and distorted scope of the Islamic world.

Timothy Matias

14:11

3. Making drugs illegal makes people want to use them even more. Its been an integral part of human nature since Adam and Eve. If you want to get them to stop using drugs, change the culture, not the laws. When the laws are changed without the culture being reformed first, the culture will rebel against it, and the end result will be the largest crime rate and prison population in the world, as we have seen in the U.S. It's not a matter of morality, its a logical matter of what works and what doesn't.

Accusing Muslims; lack of innvocation, creativity and when we show you; finding difficult to stomach our prosperity; easily dismissed as bragging. We have something to brag about. Rather than being swallowed in $17 Trillion of public debt, $61 Trillion of unfunded liabilities, $190.000 liability on every tax payer. Sad to go on. However,

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

In conclusion, may God have mercy on the soul of an infected / hateful mind. HATRED is a destructive emotion and causes self destruction. It's a waste of time and effort when 'an idiotic ideology believes culture is to be blamed'. Disbelievers would not recognise the root cause of immorality even if it flashes right in front of their face.

The likeness of those who disbelieve (in relation to the messenger) is as the likeness of one who calleth unto that which heareth naught except a shout and cry. Deaf, dumb, blind, therefore they have no sense. (The Noble Quran 2:171)

This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil). (The Noble Quran 2:2) Who believe in the Unseen, and establish worship, and spend of that We have bestowed upon them; (The Noble Quran 2:3) And who believe in that which is revealed unto thee (Muhammed) and that which was revealed before thee, and are certain of the Hereafter. (The Noble Quran 2:4) These depend on guidance from their Lord. These are the successful. (The Noble Quran 2:5) As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not. (The Noble Quran 2:6) Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom. (The Noble Quran 2:7) And of mankind are some who say: We believe in Allah and the Last Day, when they believe not. (The Noble Quran 2:8) They think to beguile Allah and those who believe, and they beguile none save themselves; but they perceive not. (The Noble Quran 2:9) In their hearts is a disease, and Allah increaseth their disease. A painful doom is theirs because they lie. (The Noble Quran 2:10) And when it is said unto them: Make not mischief in the earth, they say: We are peacemakers only. (The Noble Quran 2:11) Are not they indeed the mischief-makers ? But they perceive not. (The Noble Quran 2:12) And when it is said unto them: believe as the people believe, they say: Shall we believe as the foolish believe? Beware! They indeed are the foolish? But they know not. (The Noble Quran 2:13)

Thank God we have the Noble Quran and the authentic message of our Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) to follow to the last day of our lives. We owe our happiness to the the one who created us.

According to Muhammad, immodesty is one of the greatest sins, so what you say is heresy.

I don't hate Islam, on the contrary, I find it a very curious and interesting culture. But Islam, for all its historical merits, is an obsolete system that should have been buried in the sands of time long ago.

Culture drives everything in life. If you really think culture isn't an influential part of human behavior and beliefs, you are truly naive, and I pity you :(

It would be great if you would provide a context...

"Allah (subhana wa ta'ala) says, "Do not praise yourselves: He knows best who is godfearing." [Al-Quran 53:32] The only thing worthy to boast about is taqwa. And Allah (subhana wa ta'ala) forbids boasting about that too. There are two reasons for this. One is that only Allah (subhana wa ta’ala) knows how good a person really is. And only His knowing matters. He (subhana wa ta’ala) is the one who will reward us for it.

The other reason we are not to boast is that it is contrary to taqwa. A person...

What's immodesty got to do with innovation and creativity? Is pointing out facts bragging? Culture and beliefs have different connotations. Our culture and beliefs are in accordance with Islamic values. Islam is progressive and discourages wastage. An obsolete system has grown and continues to grow as the second largest community within a short span 1445 years.

Taqwa as understood,

ALLAH DECLARES THAT HE HAS INSPIRED THE SELF WITH DEPRAVITY (TO ACT IN A SINFUL MANNER, TO DISOBEY, TO DEVIATE, TO LIE, TO TURN AWAY FROM RIGHTEOUSNESS, TO STIR UP TROUBLE, TO DECLINE IN GOOD MANNERS). THE OPPOSITE IS TAQWA (AWE OR FEAR OF ALLAH WHICH INSPIRES A PERSON TO BE ON GUARD AGAINST WRONG ACTION AND EAGER FOR ACTIONS WHICH PLEASE HIM). IT IS THIS VERY CONSCIENCE THAT MAKES MAN GUARD AGAINST EVIL DEEDS AND FIND THE RIGHT WAY.

Timothy MatiasYesterday 19:021

You're the one who said Islam has the right to brag, not me. Also, material monuments to celebrate vain ambitions are very much immodest and contrary to the words of Mohammed and the spirit of Islam. Your ALL CAPS does not change these facts.

Nothing is more environmentally wasteful than a society that depends on fossil fuels for its economical prosperity. Nothing is more intellectually wasteful than a people that waste their intelligence on obsolete traditions, laws, and beliefs. Nothing is more morally wasteful than a people who prioritize dogma over the actual well being and happiness of its people.

There is no system more obsolete or wasteful than Islam!

If you wish to spread the Islamic Faith successfully, you should speak reasonably, objectively, without letting your judgement be clouded by dogma. The common ground can never be reached through extremist fundamentalism.

+Timothy Matias Where have I said "Islam has the right to brag"? It is sad to see as 'lying' is a way of life. Hypocrisy on record. BTW, Nothing wrong with bragging (with the intention to point out facts) with reason. You will have to provide hard evidence from the Noble Quran and the authentic message of Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) on the your claim - quote "material monuments to celebrate vain ambitions are very much immodest and contrary to the words of Mohammed and the spirit of Islam" unquote

You will have to address the issue of polluting the environment to the fossil fuel ADDICTS.

Atheists are like FISH, who deny the existence of water. The message of Islam spreads by itself. The guidance is from the Creator. Allah. No human has the power to change the hearts and minds of people.

Quotes from the Noble Quran is to remind us the day of reckoning.

No soul can ever die except by Allah's leave and at a term appointed. Whoso desireth the reward of the world, We bestow on him thereof; and whoso desireth the reward of the Hereafter, We bestow on him thereof. We shall reward the thankful. (The Noble Quran 3:145)

Link below -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3sjnUecWqY

Timothy Matias11:021

You said (quote): "+Timothy Matias Accusing Muslims; lack of innvocation, creativity and when we show you; finding difficult to stomach our prosperity; easily dismissed as bragging. We have something to brag about."

It is easy to find evidence that Muhammad spoke out against the vain construction of man-made monuments, as these are idols whose presence are a sacrilege against Allah. As your sinful pride has crippled you from seeing this simple truth, I will furnish evidence accordingly.

You already bragged about Islam's prosperity being caused by their "innovation and creativity" in the oil industry (though I'd hardly call the extraction and processing of a naturally-accumulated substance "innovation" - that process has been around for thousands of years, and Islam's contribution to the oil extraction process has been miniscule).

You sir, are the braggart "fossil fuel addict", as judging by your continual praise of such so-called "innovation", and the "prosperity it has brought your people the plutocratic elite that the Islamic people slave for. You'll have to take that up with yourself, it seems ;)

If atheists are like fish (which I do not dispute), then Muslims are like sheep, running off a cliff because a few self-righteous obstinent imbeciles jumped over, in the name of Muhammad and Allah. I say this not to ridicule or sacrilege Allah or his holy messenger, but to rebuke the Islamic people and their misguided leadership who continue to defile Allah, Muhammad, the true spirit of his teachings and precepts, and blindly follow their own corrupt and evil reinterpretation of Allah's will for his people and the world. If you continue to harden your heart against the will of Allah in pursuit of your own interpretation of his word, r that of the foolish leadership that have thrust the people of Islam into darkness, destruction only awaits you, along with all the ignorant sheep that follow with you.

The day of reckoning happened long ago. We already are in the new heaven and earth, you were just too obstinent, blind, and ignorant to see it :/

+Timothy Matias Efforts to convey 'Take the message of Islam and not the people who practice it incorrectly' is the result of this conversation.

Materialism is a preoccupation with emphasis on material objects, comforts and considerations, with a disinterest in or rejection of spiritual values. Greed means avid desire for gain of wealth and envy is a feeling of discontent or covetousness with regard to another's advantages, success, possessions, etc.

Developing one's infrastructure with ones own natural resources to promote trade / commerce and a high standard of living to it's people is progress. We know the ayahs (verses) well and we also know the serious consequences of non compliance and at the same time we do not claim perfection rather strive towards with the ayahs (verses) of the Noble Quran. Accountability and Judgement are reserved only with the Creator of the Universe. That day is not too far for the sheep who depend on oxygen to breathe. Until such time "to you is your way and to me is my way".

On the Day when every soul will find itself confronted with all that it hath done of good and all that it hath done of evil (every soul) will long that there might be a mighty space of distance between it and that (evil). Allah biddeth you beware of Him. And Allah is Full of Pity for (His) bondmen. (The Noble Quran 2:30)

Timothy MatiasYesterday 14:49

Which brings us back to the original point of contention: is Islam innovative? The only "evidence" you've provided of Islam being innovative, is to note Islam's materialistic triumphs and great contributions to consumerism. Ironically enough, these architectural feats and commercial successes are a product of the Westernization of the Arab world, and this goes to show additionally that the "innovation" of the Islamic people is greater in magnitude in proportion to their secularization, and ultimately of the dilution of their Islamic faith and/or culture.

Historically, the Arabs who contributed the most to Islamic innovation and science were atheists or otherwise secular, and persecuted in spite of, and often because of their contributions. Thankfully, much of Islam has become more westernized, and this has resulted in greater innovation in the Arab world.

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Timothy MatiasYesterday 17:51

+Hussain Fahmy I did some research on Dubai, the city you bragged (indirectly) so much about, and it definitely has some impressive stats. Not particularly innovative, but definitely prosperous. I did some checking, and it turns out Dubai is the most secular, least Muslim of all the Islamic cities, with liberal and religiously tolerant laws, provisions for religious assembly and expression, and extremely well known for the most vain, hubristic, boastful industry on earth: tourism. Its other industries (besides its heavy reliance on earth-destroying oil) include the financial and banking industry, which is of course in rebelliously brazen violation of the Shari'a law prohibiting anyone from taking financial interest. Not to mention that over 80% is Dubai is composed of expatriates- that is, non citizens, including a huge amount of Indians and Southeast Asians, and the largest Western expatriate concentration of any Arab nation (over 100,000 U.K. citizens).

Basically, your argument is self defeating: the most prosperous (and quite possibly the most innovative) Middle Eastern region, is also the least Islamic, and the most Western. So much for that argument :P

Hussain Fahmy09:37

+Timothy Matias It's quite evident that there can be no accord between a Theist and an Atheist. Let's agree to disagree and part with what we have learnt so far. I do not see how you have appointed yourself as a proponent of Shariah. My purpose of this conversation is not to win or defeat rather to draw out ground realities not armchair research. Better stop wasting our precious time.

Finally,

BEFORE WE JUDGE OTHERS OR CLAIM ANY ABSOLUTE TRUTH, CONSIDER THIS;

I'm not an atheist, I'm a fervent believer in God, though the God I believe in is most certainly not Ala.

You mean I have appointed myself as an *opponent of Shari'a? And I haven't appointed myself in any sense, it is merely my position that Shari'a and most elements of Islamic culture, scripture, and law, are counterproductive and destructive to humanity, and should be abandoned by all reasonable people as obsolete, and incompatible with modern, productive, humanitarian societies.

I seek not to win, but to better understand what is innovative, creative, or productive about Islam. I have succeeded in understanding why Islamic people think they are innovative, can now comprehend how modern Islamic states such as UAE can resolve contradictions between their religious beliefs and drive for exultation and prosperity, and most imoortantly, I have come to realize that Islamic states have begun to westernize and abandon their religious beliefs, which makes me very optimistic about the Middle East.

Thank you +Hussain Fahmy for your insight on this matter. I will make due analysis of this thread, so as to produce a well thought out piece from it :)

+Timothy Matias Thank you.

Shariah is generally applicable to Muslims. We don't see the logic behind non Muslims 'fear'. Practising Muslims apply the Shariah voluntarily on themselves to experience Divine guidance in their day to day life to the best of their ability. No need to rely on governments to legislate it. Those who live by the Islamic Shariah, as it was prescribed by the Noble Quran and the authentic message of Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) will reap the goodness of abundance in their short limited life. Never expecting the approval of others. Non Muslims have nothing to worry about the Shariah being enforced in their secular lives. We respect their choice as much as we expect them to respect ours. However, a large number of them are reverting to Islam. Thanks to the Islamophobic hate campaign.

Freedom of belief is enshrined in the Noble Quran as follows -

There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejects false deities and believes in Allah has grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower. (The Noble Quran 2:256)

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Slick Willy4 days ago

What do you do to the people that commit adultery?

What do you do to the people that are born muslim and leave Islam ?

What do you do to the homosexuals?

What punishment will you give to the one who commits adultery to one of your loved ones? (example, wife, sister, mother) 4 people eye witnessing the physical act for capital punishment.

What punishment given to a deserter in the army during a state of war and to a whistle blower? Death during the time of war and Freedom of choice at a time of peace..

What punishment to a paedophile? In time Democracy will elect officials to legalize paedophile as they did with homosexuals.

By the way Islam is a way of life. Freedom to accept or reject. The choice is entirely up to the intellect of a person.

Jesus also said, he and the Father are as one; could mean several interpretations. If Jesus never proclaimed to be the 'Father' then logically the 'Father' and 'Jesus' have separate identities. Every messenger of God preached, to know the messenger is to know the 'Father' which they meant only God be worshipped without any partners. The claim 'Son of God' infringes the right of God as the absolute owner, which is an unpardonable sin. The early Christians believed this until some were misled.

They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers. (The Noble Quran 5:72) They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve. (The Noble Quran 5:73) Will they not rather turn unto Allah and seek forgiveness of Him? For Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (The Noble Quran 5:74) The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how We make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away! (The Noble Quran 5:75)

The Muslims believe there is no eternal salvation for those who ascribe partners to God. This is non negotiable as it is embedded / innate on the soul of every human being. Referred as the covenant to God. Those who violate this covenant will nether find peace nor happiness in this short, limited life. God does not eat, drink or take a human form to fulfil His wish. He just says "Be" and it is.

Salaams

HUMANITY

Tuesday 17 June 2014

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